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DONALD MCKINLEY ALLEN

Freelance author with eyes focused on America's future
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Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientists - An Act of War or Terrorism?

Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:15 AM EST
world-news, iran, israel, assassination, nuclear-scientists
By Donald McKinley Allen
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Americans get their news about Iran’s nuclear program, their  capabilities and intentions from people they think are in the know; diplomats and journalists. Journalists feel responsible to present what they think they know in a calm and reasonable manner. Diplomats are, well; diplomatic. Still some Washington “insiders”, both politicians and media members, have issued some pretty serious warnings about the dangers of Iran’s nuclear program. Despite their recent up-tick in bellicose, baiting saber rattling, Tehran still claims its nuclear program is strictly non-military. No one, not the U.S. State Department, none of the international intelligence agencies, or the U.N.’s International Atomic Energy Agency’s personnel, believe that Iran is not attempting to make a nuclear weapon. 

Set against this background; there have been several assassinations of top level Iranian nuclear scientists across the past couple of years; including one recently via a planted-in-transit car bomb. Common wisdom has placed the state of Israel as the entity behind these assassinations (either with or without the knowledge or assistance of the U.S.). The legitimacy, value and wisdom of these assassinations has been questioned and commented on inside and outside the Beltway, in other countries both friends and enemies of Israel and/or the U.S., and of course everywhere in the Muslim world. 

Assassination as a tool of political policy is as old as government and politics itself. From the ancient Forum of Julius Caesar, through the medieval era of the Medici’s, into the 21st. Century, there have been assassinations and differing opinions on its use. The current discussion of assassination isn’t focused on the individual or personal motivation for political assassination; such as eliminating a rival to usurp their power (as practiced in some African nations) or to punish a individual held personally responsible for some attributed wrong (as in the murder of Israeli Prime Minister Rabin). The debate is about the use of assassination as a tool used by a government in the prosecuting of an assumed or real state of war with another nation or political entity opponent. 

Besides the assassination of the Iranian nuclear scientists, other examples are the use of unmanned “drone” aircraft by the U.S. against Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan and Pakistan, or the under reported use of snipers in Iraq. In most of these current uses of assassination under discussion there is some gray area. If a formal state of war exists between two entities; the killing of virtually anyone in ones enemy war personnel structure is perceived by international law as an act of war. Assuming acts of war meet a certain criteria such as the Geneva Convention; this make the killing of an enemy leader or follower legitimate whether they be military or civilian, as long as they are serving the war effort of the enemy. Co-lateral damage and loss of life is always another consideration in war, and whether it occurs as an unavoidable byproduct of active combat between military units or the attempt to reduce an enemy’s ability to make war through destruction of production facilities and personnel, it is exceedingly regrettable. 

However in some of the current conflicts in which assassination is used, there are additional factors that bear on judgments regarding its use. In some cases no formal state of war exists between the nations and nationals targeted. And in some cases at least one of the parties is not a nation at all; such as the Taliban which operates in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, as an independent, self directed army. But just because they are not sanctioned by a specific government; insurgencies can effectively fight as an Army and have considerable affect on political and governmental control of a region or a country. In the cases of the death of Iranian scientists, they were employees of a government; and were working on a program strongly suspected of developing nuclear weapons. Such weapon development is forbidden under nuclear non-proliferation treaties Iran had been party to. So if they are doing what the entire world believes they are; Iran is deploying these scientists in brazen violation of major international law governing nuclear weapons. 

But just attempting to prevent or slow down this violation is not the whole reason behind the killing of Iran’s scientists. It is also strongly believed that should Iran ever possess nuclear weapons; the state of Israel, and perhaps the U.S., would be in grave danger of being subject to nuclear attack. The political leadership of Iran has made unequivocal threats to destroy Israel, with the presumed backing of the religious leadership that controls the country. The historic behavior of the Iranian government and theocracy which has long standing record of supplying several of Israel’s enemies with weapons, material, training and other resources, their attack on the sovereign U.S. embassy and the inhumane holding of Americans hostage for well over a year, heir multi year war with Iraq in which they lost over a million people showing a marked lack of concern regarding the loss of life in armed conflict; all show that Iran is very capable of acting on or enabling surrogates to act on antagonistic feeling towards their perceived enemies. 

In light of the horrific danger that nuclear weapons in the hands of Iran and/or their surrogates, the feeling expressed by many political and military authorities inside and outside the U.S. is that Iran cannot be allowed to develop or possess nuclear arms. Assuming the validity of that position, the next logical question is; how to stop Iran from developing nuclear arms. There has been a range of suggestions proposed and tried to effectively prevent Iran’s having nuclear capabilities. Massive all out attack on all of Iran’s nuclear development facilities with the goal of completely destroying them, have been offered.  An alternate proposal has been surgical strikes at key targets in their program. These direct attacks have been in addition to plans for selectively eliminating key program personnel, such as the scientists that have been killed. Imposing ever increasing economic sanctions on Iran has been tried and failed to succeed in moving the country pursue talks the goal of which is preventing Iran from building nuclear weapons. Even when the offers from Iran’s “friends” such as Russia and China to do the refining of nuclear material Iran says it wants only for power generation or medical treatment is included in proposals; Iran has flatly vetoed anything that would prevent them from achieving the goal of making nuclear weapons. 

Iran’s intransigence has frustrated all and any parties that have tried to become involved in some peaceful resolution to the situation. Neither the carrot of nuclear cooperation with major nuclear players nor the stick in increased sanctions has induced Iran into productive negotiations. Whether Iran is merely stalling or truly unchangeably committed to achieving the goal of nuclear weapons, is known only in the inner circles of the Tehran government and theocracy. Meanwhile Iran continues steadfastly to continue on its path of increasing its nuclear refining capabilities aimed at producing bomb grade nuclear material; while some of the world’s most powerful nations, who do a lot of business with Iran, say they are trying to figure out what to do that will work. It raises the question of whether they are truly trying to prevent Iran’s nuclear goal or are really assisting in delaying any worldwide unified military action to stop Iran’s nuclear program. 

The use of high tech computer hacking into the Iranian nuclear program has only produced temporary delays and relatively minor damage to their facilities. Short of open military attack on Iran’s known nuclear projects, the killing of their programs key scientists seems to be the only possible way of disrupting their nuclear goals, short of open warfare. But this too only provides a temporary delay, not a solution to an ongoing problem that will, absent a conclusive resolution, inevitably lead to Iran achieving its desired goal of having nuclear weapons. 

The discussion of the need, effectiveness and appropriateness in the moral sense, of the assassinations of Iranian scientists, has provided opportunity for various parties to express outrage, muted disapproval or open support for these actions. Iran and its few allies have of course expressed outrage along with broad accusations as to blame. Most other international entities have either avoided comment or proclaim the standard general disapproval of the killing of these scientists. They base their disapproval on either; the scientists being civilians or a lack of absolute proof that Iran is developing nuclear weapons and may very well use them against Israel and/or the U.S. 

The first reason that, these scientists are not the ones who will point to weapons at Iran’s enemies, is a non-starter. During the Second World War the allies didn’t draw the distinction between the scientists working at the German rocket works at Peenemunde and the Luftwaffe that was planning on shooting them at the allies. All of Germany’s war enabling capabilities were targeted, whether manned by civilian, military or even slave labor personnel. In a dictatorial regime such as Iran, anyone working on government projects that presents a threat to another nation is a legitimate target. 

The second reason, is Iran really trying to make a nuclear weapon? and the corollary, will it be used against Israel and/or the U.S.?, is also mostly an answered question. Virtually every governmental and independent authority are in agreement that everything about Iran’s approach and process in its nuclear program is aimed at producing nuclear weapons. As to whether achieving this goal is just a gambit to enhance it perception in the Muslim world as one of, if not the biggest player in the game or might it truly be used against Israel, the U.S. or even Saudi Arabia to force the Muslim world and the rest of the world into accepting Iran as the leader of the world dominating Caliphate Iran has long dreamed of and proposed; is a question some people say needs further thought. 

But considering the oft threatened likelihood that Israel might be the first target of Iran’s Middle East/Central Asia power grab; can the Israeli’s really afford to adopt a watch and wait policy? In the circumstances Israel has always found itself in, seriously outnumbered and out gunned, facing credible threats of annihilation, lacking any nearby allies or even friends; what kind of chances can the government of Israel reasonably be expected to take with the lives of their citizens? Can Israel really depend on Russia or China to pressure Iran in ways that they are capable of, to forswear developing nuclear weapons? Can Israel count on a United Europe to pull out all the stops against Iran to force them into acquiescing to international demands? Or will the Europeans revert to form and cave in at the thought of an Iranian disruption of their oil supply and try to pressure Israel into accepting a nuclear Iran? Will the United States step up, as all of its political leadership, on all sides of the aisle, has consistently said, and stand shoulder to shoulder with Israel when it’s crunch time and Iran is about to complete it first nuclear test? Will the U.S. aid, assist or at least not hinder Israel, should the U.S. be consulted about a pending Israeli strike in force against Iran’s nuclear facilities? Or will the U.S. use its considerable economic aid leverage and attempt force Israel into trusting a U.S. backed plan of containment to keep Israel safe? 

Granted containment did work in the case of the Soviet Union and appears to be working to so far prevent any atavistic plans China has. But these were and are developing nations who were succeeding and growing and needed the U.S. as a trade partner. Iran is not developing in the same way; they are living under a 15th Century theocracy. Iran is focused on using their vast oil wealth to influence, undermine or dominate their fellow Muslim states, with the goal of being the 21th Century’s leader of their self styled Caliphate. Iran isn’t dependant on doing business with the U.S., world’s largest economy, for anything; we don’t trade with Iran. The influence of Israel’s most important ally is virtually nil when it comes to Iran. In fact having the U.S., which the Iranian government still calls “the Great Satan” as its ally allows Iran to connect its enemy the U.S. with Israel as part of its message of enmity towards all things Western. This is a trick played by many Muslim states to distract its people from the poverty and totalitarianism they are forced to live under. But Iran has raised the demonization of the West, the U.S. and Israel in particular as the cause of all Muslim troubles, to a level that truly defies all reason and truth. 

This false premise that Israel, in particular, and the West in general has been the touchstone of all the calls, excuses and  rationalizations for Muslim terrorism for the past sixty years. Israel itself has even been accused of acts of terrorism by its enemies. But an objective look at Israel’s actions against its enemies, as compared and contrasted to Muslim actions against Israel and its other enemies, points out some clear and defining differences. Israel’s occupation of the West Bank is a result of Israel’s winning of the Six Day War in 1967, after the unprovoked attacked by several Muslim nations, including the Palestinian territory of the West Bank. After its victory, Israel occupied the territory of several of its attackers, as is a common outcome of military conflict. Israel historically negotiated with all but one of its attackers and the result was the return of virtually all the territory Israel occupied during the war. The one exception of course are the Palestinians who have refused to complete an oft started negotiations process. But the results of these negotiations unfortunately has also often been in the end rejected by the Palestinians. Israel isn’t a terrorist state, although it is an occupying entity. Palestinian civilians are not randomly targeted for acts of indiscriminate homicide. School bus stops, public markets, non-combatants out for a Sunday drive, tourists, citizens within territorial borders and other innocents are not randomly attacked by Israelis; but they are in by Palestinian terrorists, thousands of times over the years. Israel has not acted as a terrorist but Iran is in many ways the creator of much of the world’s terrorism. Much of the terrorism against Israel and worldwide has been paid for and assisted in many ways by the government of Iran. Iran has been the most pro-active nation in supporting, encouraging and funding the world of international Muslim terrorism aimed at Israel, the U.S. and the West. It is now the country that poses the largest threat to Israel, U.S., and world safety, and is developing the ultimate threat. Terrorism and the threat of terrorism is a key part of the current nature of war. And Israel has been on the frontline and the main target of that war since the day it can into being. 

Can a country that is the central bank of international terrorism be expected to be a reliable partner in nuclear non-proliferation negotiations? Can a country that is lead by a Holocaust denier and blatant anti-Semite and his theocrat backers, one which also has plans of pan-Muslim domination, be trusted not to attack Israel as an illustrative example of its power? Can the Israelis take that kind of a chance? Or should they do whatever they can to stall, interfere with, stymie, and ultimately stop Iran from achieving its extremely dangerous goal of having nuclear weapons capabilities? 

In circumstances with an unthinkable outcome if Israel doesn’t do absolutely everything it can to protect itself; killing Iranian scientists who are working to enable the Iranian’s plan, is very small, logical and reasonable part of Israel’s defensive plans. It is entirely understandable and supportable because it is also virtually necessary for a worthwhile good; the protection of innocents.

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  • Public Discussion (86)
randomreturn

Good article.

In my opinion, I would say that the assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists don't meet the terrorism test (since most definitions of terrorism require civilian targets, and if one postulates that the attacker reasonably believes these scientists to be involved in the development of nuclear weaponry, then they are ipso facto military targets - much like those Germans working in the ball-bearing factory at Schweinfurt).

It is, however, an act of war, assuming that the assassins are in fact state-sponsored.

That's not a value judgment (neither positive nor negative); it's just a point that when states have their agents kill agents of another government, that it by definition starts getting into the realm of state vs state violence - war (albeit low-level war).

  • 4 votes
#1 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:43 AM EST
Dennis M Wright

It is maybe an act of defence, intending to prevent a war. Not that it will do any more than delay war (possibly a cold war) a bit.

There may be an element of terrorism - a desire to discourage scientists working on Iran's nuclear programme by giving them cause to fear for their lives.

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:51 AM EST
freetacosDeleted
randomreturn

to defend their country they just took back from the fascists

"Their country which is becoming fascist after the stolen 2009 election"

    #1.3 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:30 AM EST
    Dennis M Wright

    "Oh, please let me waste my education and give my life to keep this country, which was once a dictatorship, in the thrall of an Islamist regime which hangs gays, denies the holocaust, threatens other states, breaks international agreements, rigs votes, has made itself an international pariah, has inflicted violence on its peaceful civilian protesters ..."

    Isn't passionate idealism wonderful?

    • 8 votes
    #1.4 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:39 AM EST
    Meloney

    Isn't passionate idealism wonderful?

    It's what drove early Zionists like Tzipi Livni's parents to commit serial crimes, be sanctioned, and return to do more.

    • 7 votes
    #1.5 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:29 AM EST
    Fla Pat

    This really throws a monkey wrench into the idea of America being a Christian nation if in fact actions like this are considered acceptable ("Thou Shalt Not Kill")!

    I never did understand how Bush reconciled the "Bush Doctrine" and still claimed to be a devout Christian. If God in fact told him "Yeah, OK Go Ahead and Kill," shouldn't we at least have a stone tablet of even a PDF file or something??

    War or Terrorism? I venture to call it murder.

    • 4 votes
    #1.6 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 AM EST
    randomreturn

    As an aside, one of my theology professors stated that "thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation, that the actual verb is "murder." Uncertain about the etymology, but that's what was in the lecture and the textbook for my sophomore-level theo class.

    • 1 vote
    #1.7 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:33 AM EST
    Dennis M Wright

    Meloney - somewhat off topic, don't you think?

    • 12 votes
    #1.8 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:36 AM EST
    Fla Pat

    As an aside, one of my theology professors stated that "thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation, that the actual verb is "murder."

    He must not have seen the "Ten Commandents," DeMille and Heston could not be wrong. I believe Heston's (Moses') tablet said "kill."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKEp7WYrMmY

    Yes, you could see it just before he heaved the tablets at the golden idol!

    • 1 vote
    #1.9 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:52 AM EST
    Dennis M Wright

    There is no special word for "murder" as a crime in Classical Hebrew so the word for "kill" is used but it means murder. For example, not ruling out killing as part of war.

    • 6 votes
    #1.10 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:54 AM EST
    randomreturn

    @Fla Pat: Hey, that gold cow had it comin'

    @Dennis: thank you for the clarification.

    • 3 votes
    #1.11 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:56 AM EST
    Meloney

    Meloney - somewhat off topic, don't you think? Well, no, it was a direct response to you Dennis. What appears to be off track passionate idealism may wind up be romanticized. Hey, if you say it is off topic I'll reread your hypothetical comment as rhetorical with a heavy dose of snark/sarcasm.

    Are assassinations a legitimate tool in the arsenal of statecraft? Yes, it happens. Is it legitimate? I'll go with no.

    • 8 votes
    #1.12 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:23 PM EST
    Hippocrates of Cos

    It is maybe an act of defence, intending to prevent a war.

    Nice way to reword the situation, either terrorism or an act of war, so that Israel looks better.

    Would you support a foreign nation assassinating Jewish nuclear scientists? Would you call terrorism against Jewish scientists an act of defense?

    • 8 votes
    #1.13 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:01 PM EST
    izmeeExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

    Would you support a foreign nation assassinating Jewish nuclear scientists? Would you call terrorism against Jewish scientists an act of defense?

    Absolutely.

    Because the second that happens, there will be a very well deserved bitchslap on that cancer of the world, that rest of us know as islam. Just going with that 1,000 to 1 ratio the stupid garbage muslims embraced with Shalit, you know.

    Go jews.

    • 4 votes
    #1.14 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:00 PM EST
    Hippocrates of Cos

    cancer of the world, that rest of us know as islam.

    Reported for being inflammatory, negatively portraying an entire race/religion/naionality.

    • 5 votes
    #1.15 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:14 AM EST
    Reply
    Buzz of the Orient

    Common wisdom has placed the state of Israel as the entity behind these assassinations.

    An assumption at best.

    • 7 votes
    Reply#2 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:19 AM EST
    freetacosDeleted
    Reply
    freetacosDeleted
    Physicist-retired

    Interesting article, Donald. It's an issue I've been giving a fair amount of thought to lately.

    As I see it, the practice of targeting Iranian scientists is exactly equivalent to the scenario of Japanese operatives assassinating the scientists that worked on the Manhattan Project. I don't think many Americans would have supported that approach. This is no different.

    There's one more wrinkle regarding Iran. Unlike the scientists who worked at Los Alamos, I'm not at all convinced that these Iranian scientists are volunteering for such duty. They may have no choice.

    I'm all for disrupting Iran's attempts to develop a nuclear weapon. The Stuxnet virus was a stroke of brilliance, and it was very effective.

    I support actions like that. But killing a civilian chemist on his way to work? There has to be a better way.

    This looks like terrorism to me.

    • 6 votes
    Reply#4 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:32 AM EST
    Bad Fish

    If assassinations are being carried out by legitimate Governments, these actions should be met with international outrage. If the United States has any knowledge of these actions, we should turn over the responsible parties to be tried by Iranian Law. Murder cannot be justified. Sovereign nations and law should be respected. America and it's allies do not have the right to police the world. Iran does not pose an immediate threat to our borders.

    • 6 votes
    Reply#5 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:47 AM EST
    Ian-2690048

    Tried by Iranian Law? The Iranian justice system is a joke.

    I'm sure the US knows who did it and sanctioned it. The CIA and Mossad are intricately interwoven. According to a couple ex-CIA recent interviews we get a huge amount of intel concerning the region from Israel.

    As for immediate threat? Maybe not. Imminent threat? Highly likely. Obviously we don't have access to the intel. As for policing the world? It's called protecting your interests and any nation with the capability to do so will do so. You can argue the effectiveness of assassinating a civilian scientist (I can't see it being that effective) but the motivation is clear.

    • 2 votes
    #5.1 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:02 AM EST
    Bad Fish

    If an Iranian commits a crime on our soil, we try them under our law. They feel the same way about our justice system. According to global statistics our justice system is plagued with a variety of problems too.

    • 5 votes
    #5.2 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:09 AM EST
    Ian-2690048

    I don't rightly care how the Iranian regime feels about our justice system. All have flaws but few compare to the barbarism and politically motivated executions of Iran. Read the most recent Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International reports on the state of Iran's "justice" system.

    This is all secondary to the main question. You say murder is never justified. I'd argue that foreign assassination is quite justified if it can be shown to effectively protect national security. I'm not sure if that's the case in this instance but to unequivocally say it cannot be is a bit naive in my estimation.

    • 2 votes
    #5.3 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:27 AM EST
    Bad Fish

    You might want to check the human rights and justice system stats, while we rank better than a lot of third world countries we are well behind the wealthy Western world countries.

    • 5 votes
    #5.4 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:58 AM EST
    Ian-2690048

    No we're not. Provide one bit of proof. AI has their reports for 150 countries up right now. Go to their site. We, along with most western countries, get @!$%# for Guantonamo (rightly so), but we all pale in comparison to third world countries or any Islamic regime. When we start executing homosexuals, blinding people or killing journalists we disagree with then you can say that. We're far from perfect but we are far better, as far as basic human rights, than most.

    • 2 votes
    #5.5 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:32 PM EST
    Reply
    Polka14

    I think assassinations are acts of war and should be seen as war crimes beneath the actions of any civilized nations. Seeing it as defending one's interests is not an excuse.

    • 7 votes
    #6 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:35 AM EST
    Ian-2690048

    In that view isn't all war indefensible? Or does the active declaration of war somehow change the moral landscape of killing to protect a nation's security? Serious question. I fail to see how any killing is civilized, so if we are to accept some as necessary what criteria must be met?

      #6.1 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:44 AM EST
      Polka14

      Killing in self-defense is the only form of justified acts of war. Not preemptive attacks or assassinations. Only attacks that kill enemies that have attacked first in the unprovoked manner.

      Example: South Korea is attacked by North Korea. The South has the right to counter attack and this results in the deaths of enemy personnel. It was done in self-defense. So no war crime was committed by South Korea.

      Example 2: The US invades a nation without justification without engaging in self-defense and this results in deaths of military targets and civilians. The US has committed a war crime.

      • 6 votes
      #6.2 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:57 AM EST
      Bad Fish

      The world has not voted America as police, judge and jury. We as a nation are in denial about our acts of aggression. Our current foreign policy in no way resembles the foreign policy our founding fathers intended. We were supposed to be the beacon of freedom in the world but our intolerance of other nations has robbed us of that. We are not a peaceful people. Our actions rob sovereign nations of life and liberty.

      • 6 votes
      #6.3 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:05 PM EST
      Ian-2690048

      Bah. No preemptive attacks? That's foolish. When you know someone wants to punch you in the mouth you don't stand around and wait till they do so you can have the moral high ground to punch them back. The Iranian regime is constantly threatening Israel and making veiled threats at the US. That's them saying saying they're about to throw a punch. A smart fighter swings first.

      Also, Polka, there's no such thing as unprovoked. There's always a reason.

      And, Bad Fish, our founding fathers launched a preemptive attack against Britain. Their own country. Also, who is in denial about which specific acts of aggression? They also had no problem wiping out millions of native Americans. I think most people are pretty clear on foreign policy mistakes such as Iraq. As for intolerance of other nations? I have no clue what you're talking about. All those nations who would be in even worse shape without the billions in foreign aid we spend every year? Those nations?

      For the record we were never a "peaceful people". In fact, for the record, humans aren't a peaceful species.

      • 1 vote
      #6.4 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:15 PM EST
      Bad Fish

      The United States overthrew a Democratic elected prime minister in Iran in 1953 and installed an Authoritarian dictator. I have no idea why their is so much resentment against the US?Our own actions paved the way for pain and suffering of the Iranian people. A Democratic elected prime minister who spent 3 years bringing positive reform removed for an Authoritarian dictator? Are you not familiar with the history of our two nations? We have no business destroying and rebuilding nations. We spawned the Iran Iraq war and armed Iraq only to disarm them 20 years later. We trained Osama bin Laden only to fight his terrorist organization. How can you not see that we are responsible for pain and suffering in many countries. The world would be a better place if we kept our Dollar, our weapons and our noses in North America.

      • 7 votes
      #6.5 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:32 PM EST
      Polka14

      Also, Polka, there's no such thing as unprovoked. There's always a reason.

      There is no justification for an unprovoked war. It is usually called a "war of aggression" and is against international law that we agree to abide by as a member of the UN. If a nation does not attack the US then it has not provoked it. Threatening words are not justification for attack. It is normally called "saber rattling". Even the US is guilty of engaging in this but it would not be justified for a nation that feels threatened to attack the US.

      And, Bad Fish, our founding fathers launched a preemptive attack against Britain. Their own country.

      The British Empire were foreign occupiers on our soil. They provoked military action by killing civilians and pillaging and enslaving the People. The founders did not live in a peaceful era but they did create a government that existed to protect rights for the purposes of establishing a more peaceful society. A society can never be 100% peaceful but our nation can and should be seen as the standard of a peaceful People in this world. We are not seen as peaceful now and our government reflects this condition. Our government is violent and attacks foreign nations without provocation but acts of aggression are inherently against the ideals of the Republic.

      • 5 votes
      #6.6 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:05 PM EST
      Ian-2690048

      The United States overthrew a Democratic elected prime minister in Iran in 1953 and installed an Authoritarian dictator. I have no idea why their is so much resentment against the US?Our own actions paved the way for pain and suffering of the Iranian people. A Democratic elected prime minister who spent 3 years bringing positive reform removed for an Authoritarian dictator? Are you not familiar with the history of our two nations? We have no business destroying and rebuilding nations. We spawned the Iran Iraq war and armed Iraq only to disarm them 20 years later. We trained Osama bin Laden only to fight his terrorist organization. How can you not see that we are responsible for pain and suffering in many countries. The world would be a better place if we kept our Dollar, our weapons and our noses in North America.

      You, again, don't see the forest for the trees. Nor am I, as you seem to imply, supportive of most US intervention. But I'm not an absolutest nor am I naive. The world is far more complicated, and interdependent, than you seem to want to admit. Placing the Shah in power was a short-sighted and horrible idea. I would have been in favor of taking the tack Britain already was. The oil embargo was strangling Iran's economy. They would have come back to the table eventually or crumbled under their own weight. That's neither here nor there now. The Iranian people chose and equally authoritarian regime over 30 years ago and are now reaping what they've sown. To say it's the US fault for the lack of democratic reform in all that time since is bull@!$%#.

      And the Iran Iraq War was the result of that choice not the US. Iran feared Shia dominance. We were funding both sides at the time.

      Also, we didn't train OBL. That's utter myth. Pakistani intelligence trained the Afghan mujahideen using US funds but at the time nobody knew who the hell OBL was or what he wanted to do nor were funds going to foreign fighters. Further, OBL always had the intention of forming an Islamic military group to force sharia on the world, including already Islamic countries. He saw democracy, communism, pan-Arabism, any reforms not headed towards sharia in any country as an affront to Islam. He was also a wealthy egomaniac. He only declared jihad against the US in 1996 because we put troops in Saudi Arabia.

      Lastly, if we kept our dollars in North America thousands upon thousands of more people would starve to death every year. Not to mention, again, the world is not that simple. Nations are interdependent for resources and political partnerships. There is always going to be a push and pull as there has been since city-states first arose.

      There is no justification for an unprovoked war. It is usually called a "war of aggression" and is against international law that we agree to abide by as a member of the UN. If a nation does not attack the US then it has not provoked it. Threatening words are not justification for attack. It is normally called "saber rattling". Even the US is guilty of engaging in this but it would not be justified for a nation that feels threatened to attack the US.

      Gee, following that logic nobody would every attack anybody and the world would be a peaceful place. You know as well as I do that international law is meaningless. Only those on the losing end of conflicts are subjected to it. The UN is a nice framework but no member has actually ever followed it since its inception. As I said, only a fool waits around to get attacked when there may be something they can do about it.

      The British Empire were foreign occupiers on our soil. They provoked military action by killing civilians and pillaging and enslaving the People. The founders did not live in a peaceful era but they did create a government that existed to protect rights for the purposes of establishing a more peaceful society. A society can never be 100% peaceful but our nation can and should be seen as the standard of a peaceful People in this world. We are not seen as peaceful now and our government reflects this condition. Our government is violent and attacks foreign nations without provocation but acts of aggression are inherently against the ideals of the Republic.

      Our soil? WTF? We were British colonies! It was British soil by law at the time. We were the insurgents. And France was giving us secret aid to fight a proxy war with Britain. Does that sound familiar. Things never change.

      And we attack without provocation? I'll give you Iraq. That was a ridiculous move. Afghanistan on the other hand is where we should have been the day after 9/11. And 9/11 is more than enough "provocation" to attack Al Qaeda wherever we find them. Hell, the Cole and the first WTC bombing were enough in my estimation. We should have done more then.

      • 5 votes
      #6.7 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:53 AM EST
      ed-1874584

      I wish I had more than one vote for 6.7!

        #6.8 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:09 AM EST
        Polka14

        Gee, following that logic nobody would every attack anybody and the world would be a peaceful place.

        The UN was established for the protection of national sovereignty of its members. The idea of "wars of aggression" exist to prevent another Nazi Germany from invading multiple nations through aggression. If the UN doesn't accept the logic that wars of aggression are wrong then it shouldn't exist. It would be nice if everyone respected the sovereignty of all other nations but those nations that violates the sovereignty of others through aggression are seen as the war criminals. The US can not be an exception to this and it should be brought to justice or removed from the UN and no nation should be exempt from its laws or the consequences of violating these laws. Any nation has the right to leave the UN at anytime if it rejects these conditions for membership.

        Only those on the losing end of conflicts are subjected to it.

        That isn't right. All nations should enforce international law on themselves if needed. Those that refuse to do so should be seen in clear violation of UN rules and should be removed from that organization.

        As I said, only a fool waits around to get attacked when there may be something they can do about it.

        Iran is no threat to us but we are a great threat to them. Iran would be the fool to not build nuclear weapons. It is the ultimate deterrent to attack by rouge nations like the US that clearly will invade nations even without any provocation.

        Our soil? WTF? We were British colonies! It was British soil by law at the time. We were the insurgents. And France was giving us secret aid to fight a proxy war with Britain. Does that sound familiar. Things never change.

        Yes. Our soil. We were occupied by foreign soldiers in an extended empire but it was our nation (the same as the situation in India). When we declared independence officially as a unified group of states, the British Empire rejected it. We had no choice in using armed force to fight enemy forces sent to destroy the People and our independence. We were freedom fighters. And you are right about France. I think foreign intervention was wrong then and it is wrong now. We should have fought our War of Independence alone.

        Afghanistan on the other hand is where we should have been the day after 9/11. And 9/11 is more than enough "provocation" to attack Al Qaeda wherever we find them.

        Even if Al-Qaeda was fully responsible for the attacks, we should have not invaded an entire nation and spent a great amount of financial power and lost thousands of soldiers to occupy this nation that is eternally stuck in the dark ages. We should have negotiated with the Taliban to send forces to fight Al-Qaeda and then withdraw from their nation if needed. Al-Qaeda was in many nations. We shouldn't fight them by invading entire nations. Invading Afghanistan was done for false reasons. It did not actually attack us even if it gave financial support to that organization. Only Al-Qaeda attacked the US. That is at least the official account of those events.

        • 5 votes
        #6.9 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:35 AM EST
        digcreation

        We should have fought our War of Independence alone.

        we would have lost. the French navy was invaluable to the war effort.

        the UN is a nice idea that failed because it has no teeth. it cannot enforce its laws, and no one enforces laws on themselves. so the UN has become an arm of those strong enough to enforce the policies they get the UN to pass.

        • 4 votes
        #6.10 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:56 AM EST
        Ian-2690048

        I'm not even going to bother talking about the UN any further. It's a toothless organization that is besides the point anyway.

        Iran is no threat to us but we are a great threat to them. Iran would be the fool to not build nuclear weapons. It is the ultimate deterrent to attack by rouge nations like the US that clearly will invade nations even without any provocation.

        Calling the US a "rouge nation" is the ultimate in hyperbole and utterly ridiculous. And though you seem to love your international laws you see no problem with Iran breaking them and making nuclear weapons? Okay then. And to say Iran, a dictatorship that threatens the whole region and our closest ally, is not a threat is equally ridiculous. Iran is funding militant groups killing civilians in Iraq for its own ends. Iran is illegally trying to buy black market nuclear tech. Iran, unlike any other country, regularly calls for Israel to be turned into a giant pool of molten glass. Even still, Iran has nothing to fear from the US unless they make nuclear weapons against international laws, at which point it won't just be the US intervening.

        Yes. Our soil. We were occupied by foreign soldiers in an extended empire but it was our nation (the same as the situation in India). When we declared independence officially as a unified group of states, the British Empire rejected it. We had no choice in using armed force to fight enemy forces sent to destroy the People and our independence. We were freedom fighters. And you are right about France. I think foreign intervention was wrong then and it is wrong now. We should have fought our War of Independence alone.

        Wait, so declaring independence is all it takes? Huh. Didn't realize things were that simple. I didn't realize Britain should of just said, "hey, that's our people and our colonies but, hey, they wrote on a piece of parchment so it's theirs now." Please. And the situation is nothing like India. We weren't the indigenous population. We were British citizens.

        Oh, and if we fought alone we would have lost. We had no navy. It's a truly bizarre world you live in if you think countries with similar interests shouldn't ally to achieve them. Everyone in Europe would be speaking German right now using that train of thought. It's stunningly naive.

        Even if Al-Qaeda was fully responsible for the attacks, we should have not invaded an entire nation and spent a great amount of financial power and lost thousands of soldiers to occupy this nation that is eternally stuck in the dark ages. We should have negotiated with the Taliban to send forces to fight Al-Qaeda and then withdraw from their nation if needed. Al-Qaeda was in many nations. We shouldn't fight them by invading entire nations. Invading Afghanistan was done for false reasons. It did not actually attack us even if it gave financial support to that organization. Only Al-Qaeda attacked the US. That is at least the official account of those events.

        Invading Afghanistan was not done for false reasons it was done for specifically what was stated: to fight Al Qaeda on their home turf. I find it odd that your answer to not putting boots on the ground is to instead have a US funded proxy war. Isn't completely in contrast to everything you just said? And @!$%# the Taliban. They're as bad as Al Qaeda and set that country back to the dark ages. Afghanistan was once an open, artistic and free society prior to the Taliban rise.

        What we should have done was not go into Iraq (which was for no reason) and get boots on the ground in Afghanistan instantly, particularly on the Pakistani border when we still had some cache with the Pakistani people in parts of that country. If we committed to Afghanistan from the start we could have dealt heavy strategic damage to both Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

        Bottom line, your country harbors people who attack us, and you lack the capability to do anything about it, then we should. Al Qaeda doesn't care about borders and neither can we to fight them. They hide in countries with weak to no central authority. There's no authority the US could appeal to even if they wanted to.

        • 2 votes
        #6.11 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:45 PM EST
        Polka14

        we would have lost. the French navy was invaluable to the war effort.

        Even if we had lost, our conflict was not the problem of the French and they should have stayed neutral. I is my opinion that it is not right for a nation to get involved in revolutions on foreign soil. It would be hypocritical for me to suggest that French military aid was acceptable then but US military aid today isn't right.

        the UN is a nice idea that failed because it has no teeth. it cannot enforce its laws

        Then the UN should be disbanded. It serves no useful purpose and rogue nations are free to commit war crimes against other member states despite international law.

        • 3 votes
        #6.12 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:48 PM EST
        Ian-2690048

        Sooo... you're not going to address that the Revolutionary war is nothing like India? Nor how you want to enforce international law except when Iran is breaking it? Nor how Iran recklessly threatens its neighbors and the international community? Nor how you said we should have handled Al Qaeda essentially as the CIA operation to put the Shah in power? Nor how ridiculous it is to say that allied countries shouldn't aid each other?

        Forgive me if I find you a little all over the map. That's what happens you try to be a moral absolutist. The real world gets in the way of your best laid plans.

        So if I'm reading you right everyone should just stay in their own back yard. Except, that's impossible. We live in a small world with nations dependent on other nations for trade and resources. A lot of countries got the short end of the stick when it came to resources. Should we not have international trade? Because with trade comes dependence and with dependence comes a need to defend and ally. Then there's just some nations who don't want to stay in their own backyard. They may just threaten something you need even though it's across an ocean.

        If everyone played by the agreed rules the world would be a great place. Alas, that's not human nature.

        And the UN still serves a useful purpose: it allows for countries to get together and decide on sanctions on a country like Iran ;)

          #6.13 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:45 PM EST
          Polka14

          Calling the US a "rouge nation" is the ultimate in hyperbole and utterly ridiculous.

          Why? How would you define a "rogue nation"? Is it...
          A: A nation that presents itself as a threat to its neighbors and/or other foreign nations? Or is it...
          B: A nation that has a government that violates its citizens human rights?

          If so then the US is guilty of both A and B. We attack nations without provocation and our government oppresses its own citizens in many ways.

          And though you seem to love your international laws you see no problem with Iran breaking them and making nuclear weapons?

          Some laws are legitimate like laws against wars of aggression and genocide. Some are not like laws that violate a nation's sovereignty to create weapons for its own national defense. Iran has the right to build nuclear weapons for their own defense. It doesn't violate the rights of other nations.

          And to say Iran, a dictatorship that threatens the whole region and our closest ally, is not a threat is equally ridiculous. Iran is funding militant groups killing civilians in Iraq for its own ends. Iran is illegally trying to buy black market nuclear tech. Iran, unlike any other country, regularly calls for Israel to be turned into a giant pool of molten glass. Even still, Iran has nothing to fear from the US unless they make nuclear weapons against international laws, at which point it won't just be the US intervening.

          The US has funded terrorists and militants for many years. Are you thinking that saber rattling constitutes a real threat? The Soviet Union threatened to "bury us" but they did not. Even if they threatened to attack Israel and the US (their President's words were even mistranslated), it should be seen as more saber rattling from a nation that can't sustain an existential threat to the US. Even North Korea has not attacked us and it is far more rogue then Iran is. It even attacked its neighbor directly without provocation. No nation would risk annihilation as a result of using WMD's.

          Wait, so declaring independence is all it takes? Huh. Didn't realize things were that simple.

          It isn't 100% simple but it isn't really complicated. You must understand what the British Empire actually was. That kind of empire exists through military force. They use their armies to take over nations and colonize other lands. History repeats itself as they say. Does that empire remind you of another empire? Hopefully it would be the Soviet Union. Its empire was built on conquest after WWII. Those conquered lands were added to the empire but was not part of Soviet Russia. In our situation, the lands that would become the US was militarily controlled but not part of the United Kingdom that was the core of the British Empire. We were controlled by foreigners. It is the exact same as in India. We had the right to reject the foreign rule if we wished for self-rule. In our situation, the empire rejected our demand for self-rule and determined that their empire built on conquest would protect their interests through more violence.

          Oh, and if we fought alone we would have lost.

          Perhaps we would have lost but the Soviet Union eventually collapsed and India gained its independence even through peace. If our enemies had to fight another war every ten years in the Americas to suppress new revolutions then they would have eventually quit and we would have gained our inevitable independence.

          It's a truly bizarre world you live in if you think countries with similar interests shouldn't ally to achieve them. Everyone in Europe would be speaking German right now using that train of thought. It's stunningly naive.

          I have moral objections on interfering in another nation's affairs or revolution. And Europe would be speaking Russian with 99% likelihood if the US and the UK had not liberated western Europe.

          Invading Afghanistan was not done for false reasons it was done for specifically what was stated: to fight Al Qaeda on their home turf. I find it odd that your answer to not putting boots on the ground is to instead have a US funded proxy war.

          Al-Qaeda doesn't have a "home turf". They can fight anywhere in the world. And it wouldn't be a proxy war. It would be a direct war with Taliban support if we were able to negotiate with them for the rights to send US forces and capture known Al-Qaeda targets with an immediate withdrawal. I think it would be preferable to an invasion.

          And @!$%# the Taliban. They're as bad as Al Qaeda and set that country back to the dark ages.

          Maybe but it isn't our place to determine that they shouldn't rule Afghanistan. And they will retake control when we withdraw from that nation.

          Bottom line, your country harbors people who attack us, and you lack the capability to do anything about it, then we should. Al Qaeda doesn't care about borders and neither can we to fight them. They hide in countries with weak to no central authority. There's no authority the US could appeal to even if they wanted to.

          That is the dangerous thinking to promote the violation of the territory of sovereign nations. But that would be a problem when fighting a terrorist group and not a nation state. This should be done diplomatically to secure the rights to engage certain hostiles on foreign soil. It should not be done by force in my opinion.

          • 4 votes
          #6.14 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:23 PM EST
          Hippocrates of Cos

          It is the exact same as in India. We had the right to reject the foreign rule if we wished for self-rule. In our situation, the empire rejected our demand for self-rule and determined that their empire built on conquest would protect their interests through more violence.

          Namaste. I found your entire post very well written and accurate, Polka. The part I have quoted makes me suspect you are form India, hence my greeting. Please forgive me, if I'm wrong, for making an assumption based on your use of pronouns.

          • 4 votes
          #6.15 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:50 PM EST
          Polka14

          I apologize if my wording was misunderstood. The two sentences were two different thoughts. The second was discussing the American war for independence. I was only comparing the imperial occupations of the American states and India. But I would thank you for agreeing with my statements. I am not from India but I understand their struggle to gain independence.

          • 4 votes
          #6.16 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:22 PM EST
          digcreation

          Even if we had lost, our conflict was not the problem of the French and they should have stayed neutral. I is my opinion that it is not right for a nation to get involved in revolutions on foreign soil. It would be hypocritical for me to suggest that French military aid was acceptable then but US military aid today isn't right.

          while I applaud your attempt to remain true to yourself. we asked the French for help, and they agreed because it was in their economic interests to make the British suffer. Just like the Libyans asked us for help.

          so, why, never?

          • 1 vote
          #6.17 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:50 PM EST
          Buzz of the Orient

          If the French had NOT helped, you would be living in the United States of Canada today.

          • 4 votes
          #6.18 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:54 PM EST
          digcreation

          she doesn't care about that. see 6.12

          its easy to have an absolutists philosophy when you don't make the choices or have to face the actual consequences.

          • 1 vote
          #6.19 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:18 PM EST
          Polka14

          so, why, never?

          Foreigners helping foreigners in that manner? It is difficult to articulate why I believe it is wrong but it doesn't seem right to me. Maybe because internal conflicts are really not the concern of other nations and it is selfish for a nation to get involved for monetary or diplomatic gain.

          If the French had NOT helped, you would be living in the United States of Canada today.

          No. We would be a free nation but if we were defeated, it would take longer for the nation to become free from imperial rule. It would have only delayed the inevitable.

          • 2 votes
          #6.20 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:43 PM EST
          digcreation

          we would probably be a member of the british commonwealth of nations now, just like canada and india. still recognizing the crown.

          It is difficult to articulate why I believe it is wrong but it doesn't seem right to me.

          perhaps because this is not a well thought out premise?

          • 5 votes
          #6.21 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:50 PM EST
          Polka14

          we would probably be a member of the british commonwealth of nations now, just like canada and india. still recognizing the crown

          That would have been very terrible but we do not know the likely outcome if the war for independence had failed. We can only create the theories about the outcome.

          • 1 vote
          #6.22 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:48 PM EST
          digcreation

          I suppose.

          but we do know that french intervention was invaluable in that victory, And our intervention was invaluable to the Libyan rebel victory. and both interventions were requested.

          do you really believe nations should ignore distress calls?

          • 2 votes
          #6.23 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:55 PM EST
          Polka14

          do you really believe nations should ignore distress calls?

          A nation's armed force should exist for its own national defense. That is why we call it a national defense. It is not an armed force that exists to help foreign nations with their problems. Interfering in foreign conflicts would have complications. We would need to choose a side to aid in a conflict with two or more sides. Can the US (a nation of foreigners) decide that one side in a foreign internal conflict is right? In the Libyan conflict, the US sided with armed rebels that fought against its own government. We should avoid situations of overthrowing the governments of foreign nations. I do not believe that it is just. And do you think it is just to sacrifice billions of dollars or even lives by interfering in a foreign conflict regardless of the nature of the armed conflict?

          • 1 vote
          #6.24 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:08 PM EST
          digcreation

          regardless of the conflict? no of course not.

          to help those struggling for democracy against tyranny, when they ask for help? yes. absolutely.

          saying we should only mind our own business no matter what is the attitude of a person who ignores an assault in an alleyway as they walk by because its none of their business... coward.

          if you can help, and you are asked for help, and you still don't help... you are partly responsible for all the suffering which follows.

            #6.25 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:13 PM EST
            Buzz of the Orient

            That would have been very terrible...

            I don't know about that. Australia, Canada and New Zealand come 1st, 2nd and 4th as the best countries in the world in which to live (all 3 being British Commonwealth nations) according to the OECD survey. The USA comes in at 7th.

            http://www.businessinsider.com/oecd-better-life-index-2011-5#

            • 1 vote
            #6.26 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:18 PM EST
            digcreation

            and we'd have a mutliparty parliment instead of this nonsense.

              #6.27 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:31 PM EST
              Polka14

              if you can help, and you are asked for help, and you still don't help... you are partly responsible for all the suffering which follows.

              But why should we help? Why do you think the US has any obligation to lend assistance to foreign nations if help is requested? Are their internal conflicts not their own problems?

              I don't know about that.

              I would simply not want the US to be associated with that evil empire.

              The USA comes in at 7th.

              Surprising that we are not in the 20's or 30's with high unemployment, high violence and a corrupt government that is stripping our freedoms with a highly functioning police state system.

              • 2 votes
              #6.28 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:04 PM EST
              digcreation

              Why do you think the US has any obligation to lend assistance to foreign nations if help is requested?

              I don't know if I can explain why it is immoral to ignore a distress call when you are able to offer assistance. I've never met anyone who didn't agree with that principal before.

              • 1 vote
              #6.29 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:30 PM EST
              Buzz of the Orient

              Surprising that we are not in the 20's or 30's with high unemployment, high violence and a corrupt government that is stripping our freedoms with a highly functioning police state system.

              You're just about right on with respect to a broad determination of Social Justice:

              http://eezzbeat.newsvine.com/_news/2012/01/16/10169266-us-ranks-27th-in-social-justice

                #6.30 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:33 PM EST
                randomreturn

                So, Polka, is the proper reaction to, say, concentration camps and genocide to look at it, shrug and say, "Oh, well. That's an internal issue; not my problem"?

                  #6.31 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:39 PM EST
                  Polka14

                  I've never met anyone who didn't agree with that principal before.

                  It is different when discussing sovereign nations. The libertarian viewpoint promotes not involving ourselves in foreign affairs when we are not involved. It is best to "mind our own business".

                  So, Polka, is the proper reaction to, say, concentration camps and genocide to look at it, shrug and say, "Oh, well. That's an internal issue; not my problem"?

                  We already do that unless we have something to gain like in Libya. However the answer would be "yes" if you follow the libertarian ideals of non-intervention.

                  • 2 votes
                  #6.32 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:54 PM EST
                  digcreation

                  and this is where libertarianism goes off the rails. there is no leeway for circumstance or practical necessity. this is our philosophy and that's it!

                  Ron Paul could have a lot of support if he wasn't so unwilling to admit that we need some regulation and we need some foreign involvements. All philosophies function perfectly in the vacuum of the ideal. but you need to recognize that reality rarely is ideal and adapt.

                  • 1 vote
                  #6.33 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:58 PM EST
                  Polka14

                  Ron Paul could have a lot of support if he wasn't so unwilling to admit that we need some regulation and we need some foreign involvements.

                  I do not agree. Regulations exist at the expense of freedom and foreign interventions occur at the expense of peace.

                  • 3 votes
                  #6.34 - Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:04 AM EST
                  digcreation

                  that's a great slogan, but following it to its inevitable conclusion there would be no cops because they regulate behavior and no penal system because intervention leads to criminal acts in retribution.

                  • 2 votes
                  #6.35 - Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:08 AM EST
                  Polka14

                  but following it to its inevitable conclusion there would be no cops because they regulate behavior

                  We only need laws that declare infringing behavior and actions to be illegal and the People can regulate their own behavior. Those people that violate the laws against infringing behavior would be arrested by unarmed guardians of the law. If armed resistance is needed then they would ask for armed volunteers from the People to assist in capturing or killing armed and dangerous violators of the laws against infringing rights.

                  and no penal system because intervention leads to criminal acts in retribution.

                  Intervention to enforce laws against infringing behavior is necessary. Laws that violate our rights are not necessary.

                  • 1 vote
                  #6.36 - Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:55 AM EST
                  digcreation

                  We only need laws that declare infringing behavior and actions to be illegal and the People can regulate their own behavior.

                  I know this is what ron paul is arguing. However, if we wait till after the pollution occurs to deal with it you get the situation we had in the 70's with burning rivers and acid rain, etc. Which was the motive behind these regulations. The LA skline used to be smog, now it is visible due to regulations.

                  my point here is that people have proven themselves not to be trustworthy with self regulation, and your plan is shutting the barn door after the horses have escaped. Preventing damage is a worthy effort, its what cops do when they patrol your neighborhood.

                  I will agree that we have too many, too cumbersome regulations.. there are many aspects of our government which need reform, but we do need regulation.

                  • 1 vote
                  #6.37 - Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:20 PM EST
                  Reply
                  DocPhil

                  A bit conflicted here.....

                  On one hand, I have an abiding belief that peace is better than war. That negotiation is better than guns. That saving sentient life is better than killing..........BUT

                  I also have an abiding belief that every sovereign nation has an absolute right to self-defense. My pacifist beliefs are not shared by most of the world and there is always a state of declared or undeclared war occuring somewhere.

                  Given that, I don't know who killed the Iranian scientist. It could be the Americans, the Israelis, or even the Iranians if they thought the scientist might be in danger of defecting. We will probably never know. We can argue the right or wrong of this all we want, but the reality is that political assassination will always be with us.

                  • 5 votes
                  Reply#7 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:58 AM EST
                  Buzz of the Orient

                  DocPhil, that's a very common-sense comment on this topic. Thank you.

                  • 3 votes
                  #7.1 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:48 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Zen-Hydra

                  Is an overt war more more desirous than a covert one?

                  If it is accepted by most of the intelligence community that Iran is working to create nuclear weapon technology, one can logically conclude that those that stand to significantly gain, or lose, by such an acquisition must be taking actions to support their respective interests.

                  Are more lives lost through assassination and sabotage, or by an outright ground war?

                  If there is a line in the sand (and we have every reason to believe there is), then lives will be lost one way, or the other.

                  I am confident, based on what I've read, that this issue cannot peacefully end without Iran abandoning its attempts to create nuclear arms.

                  • 3 votes
                  Reply#8 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:10 PM EST
                  Knight77

                  Obviously, assassinations are illegal, but this doesn't mean anything these days. However, I think it all depends on which side you're on!

                  There's a "new and revised" morality belief in this age of ours and it clearly states that if an Arab/Muslim is attacked, tough luck. On the other hand, if a non-Arab/Muslim is attacked then that, beyond doubt, is terrorism!

                  My guess is that this operation stinks with the nasty stench of Mossad. Automatically, then, it is considered "self-defense"!

                  It doesn't matter what this article says, or what we say. It doesn't matter even if %99.99 of the world agreed it is an act of war (or terrorism, for that matter), at the end of the day Israel would do what Israel wants to do!

                  • 5 votes
                  Reply#9 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:55 PM EST
                  Buzz of the Orient

                  You didn't finish the sentence, Knight.

                  ...at the end of the day Israel would do what Israel wants to do!

                  ....whatever it takes to protect its citizens from the annihilation with which they have been threatened.

                  NEVER AGAIN!!!!!

                  • 3 votes
                  #9.1 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:55 PM EST
                  Zen-Hydra

                  Buzz of the Orient

                  Let's not pretend that Israel's hands aren't dirty. Israel has established a willingness to prioritize the ends over the means when it come to proactive defense.

                  • 6 votes
                  #9.2 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:06 PM EST
                  Buzz of the Orient

                  In the event of a threat to your existence, it is better to deal with the cause than with the effect.

                  • 4 votes
                  #9.3 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:12 PM EST
                  Buzz of the Orient

                  Since there are all kinds of theories, mostly pointing to Mossad, did any (unbiased) viners ever consider the possibility that the scientists were more concerned with preventing nuclear weapons than producing them, and therefore were targetted by their own government? I think it's just as valid a theory as pointing the finger elsewhere.

                  • 4 votes
                  #9.4 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:16 PM EST
                  digcreation

                  the article says the bomb was placed in transit.

                  seems like that requires someone the victim knew.

                  • 2 votes
                  #9.5 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:31 PM EST
                  Knight77

                  Buzz of the Orient,

                  So in order to "protect" your people you are willing to destroy others? Its right to exist requires, as one of its fundamental elements, the devastation of others. Do others have the right to exist too?

                  Since Israel claims that it feels threatened and needs to protect itself by having nuclear weapons, then any other country can make that equal claim. Iran feels threatened! Doesn't Iran have people it needs to protect? (I am not defending Iran, nor do I support nuclear weapons either. It's just a matter of principle).

                  The claim that Israel's people are in a constant struggle to survive is absurd! Israel is one of the strongest countries and most influential. No one can even question its actions (otherwise they'll be labelled with antisemitism)! Even the law cannot touch Israel. The majority of the world opposes its illegal (and inhumane) actions yet cannot do anything to it, not even a mere slap on the hand!

                  According to Israel, to protect your people you have the right to launch an attack on morality, ethics, logic, history and humanity!

                  I stand by what I said: Israel would do whatever Israel wants to do -and I add- only because humanity is failing.

                  • 3 votes
                  #9.6 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:30 PM EST
                  Buzz of the Orient

                  So in order to "protect" your people you are willing to destroy others?

                  So typical to put words in the mouths of a person with whom you don't agree, isn't it? It is not Israel that has threatened to destroy others. Israel is at the receiving end of such threats, whether it was the threats made before the wars on Israel's borders, or it was Hamas or Iran or Hezbollah. What Israel has had to do to defend its citizens is no different than any country has ever had to do to defend its citizens. You've just made the adage a truism: "If the Arabs put down their arms there will be peace, and if Israel puts down their arms there will be no more Israel".

                  No one can even question its actions (otherwise they'll be labelled with antisemitism)!

                  I've questioned many of the the things that the Israeli government, judiciary, IDF, settlers and Haradim have done and I don't consider myself an anti-Semite. Justifiable constructive criticism is not anti-Semitism. That is particularly noted in the Ottawa Protocol. However a particular focus on Israel holding them up to a double standard or vicious destructive criticism IS anti-Semitism.

                  According to Israel, to protect your people you have the right to launch an attack on morality, ethics, logic, history and humanity!

                  That just proves what I said.

                  • 3 votes
                  #9.7 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:54 PM EST
                  The Confessor

                  Hey Buzz what's with your denial that Israel had nothing to do with the murder of the Iranian nuclear scientist? Who has been threatening to attack Iran? Who developed the Stuxnix Vrius to shut down Iranian centrifuges? Buzz you have to concede that Israel is the lead suspecs in this murder case.

                  • 2 votes
                  #9.8 - Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:52 PM EST
                  Buzz of the Orient

                  Hey Buzz what's with your denial that Israel had nothing to do with the murder of the Iranian nuclear scientist?

                  You're right to question me in that way, because I never denied that Israel had nothing to do with the murder of the Iranian nuclear scientist. Even the most vicious criminal in the world is not guilty of a crime unless they are proven so beyond a reasonable doubt (at least in civilized countries). So when you prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, I will deny that Israel had nothing to do with the murder.

                  • 1 vote
                  #9.9 - Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:40 PM EST
                  digcreation

                  actually very few countries use the innocent till proven guilty rule

                    #9.10 - Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:33 PM EST
                    Buzz of the Orient

                    actually very few countries use the innocent till proven guilty rule

                    Yeah, I said "civilized" ones.

                    • 1 vote
                    #9.11 - Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:53 PM EST
                    Hippocrates of Cos

                    Even the most vicious criminal in the world is not guilty of a crime unless they are proven so beyond a reasonable doubt

                    So why does Israel feel they can get away with Extrajudicial Murder? If Israel can kill without trials then why can't Israel be blamed without a trial?

                    Have Hamas members or their militia ever received a trial before being called a terrorist?

                    How about when MOSSAD assassinated the Hamas leader in Dubai, did he ever received a trial?

                    Have Iranian scientists been given trials before MOSSAD assassinated them?

                    • 5 votes
                    #9.12 - Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:47 AM EST
                    Knight77

                    Buzz of the Orient

                    I didn't intend to put words in your mouth, I just deduced from what you said!

                    Israel is an expert in propaganda. Most of the time it's very careful what it openly says in front of the world. Israel's actions, however; speak volumes! I don't need to wait for an Israeli official to say some well-constructed BS to know what's happening in reality or if Israel is threatening anyone!

                    Maybe, according to Israel (and its supporters), Hamas (et al) are threatening Israel, but why do we always forget Israel's actions? Hamas (et al) did not just wake up one day and decided to go crazy and threaten "innocent" Israel! Can't we go back in history a little bit further? Can't we look up what Israel's founders/leaders did (and said) in regards to Palestinians and their land?

                    Israel is not protecting its citizens the way any other country would (or should). It's breaking the law and disregarding innocent lives. It puts itself on one side and the rest of the world on the opposite side!

                    Israel is a threat! A threat to peace and to the region's stability way more than Hamas, Hezbollah, or Iran.

                    Good for you that you questioned some things about Israel, every human should. I promise you, if you keep doing so with an open mind and genuine pursuit of the truth, you will soon be on the right side of things. Now, whether YOU consider yourself antisemitic or not is not relevant. Chances are that if you keep questioning, and maybe one day ask for action to be taken, you might be labelled as antisemitic.

                    Justifiable constructive criticism is not anti-Semitism.

                    Show me where does this apply? Israel and its blind defenders always claim that ANY criticism to Israel is antisemitism. No one has the right to question it. Period.

                    According to Israel, to protect your people you have the right to launch an attack on morality, ethics, logic, history and humanity!

                    That just proves what I said.

                    But wait, what I said does not reflect a personal opinion, it is an observation of daily facts that has been there for decades. If one chooses not to see them does not make them untrue!

                    • 3 votes
                    #9.13 - Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:18 PM EST
                    Reply
                    digcreation

                    as to the general idea of assassinations... I'd rather governments kill each other than send citizens off to do it for them. but, of course, the details of case do matter.

                    for this specific case:

                    Virtually every governmental and independent authority are in agreement that everything about Iran’s approach and process in its nuclear program is aimed at producing nuclear weapons

                    that's what they all said about Iraq too.

                    considering the oft threatened likelihood that Israel might be the first target of Iran’s Middle East/Central Asia power grab;

                    Let's say they do get a nuke, what then?

                    Israel/Palestine is the size of New Jersey. Firing a nuke at Israel would mean irradiating parts of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and possibly Egypt (wind current NE mostly). The Jordan river which supplies water for those countries would be in-potable. Not to mention what it would do to the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Wat happens to this theoretical Caliphate then? (btw Iranians are Persian, so they don't have Arab brothers)

                    The strategic advantage of a nuke is in holding your enemies at bay. firing first sort of defeats the purpose. The reason we used the policy of containment with the USSR (which took decades to succeed by the way) was because they had nukes and we couldn't invade.

                    All the fearmongers predicted the end of the world if N Korea got nukes. Well they did, and test fired rockets which can reach the US. but no attack, and they are possibly the only people more bat@!$%# crazy than the Iranians.

                    crazy, but not stupid.

                    and still the propaganda machine pushes us to war.

                    • 5 votes
                    Reply#10 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:49 PM EST
                    digcreation

                    from another article currently on the vine

                    And it's not just the US assessment. Israel's liberal newspaper Haaretz reported yesterday that "Iran has not yet decided whether to make a nuclear bomb, according to the intelligence assessment Israeli officials will present later this week to [visiting] Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff." Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak poured cold water on speculation that his country is planning a unilateral attack against Iran. "This entire thing is very far off. I don’t want to provide estimates [but] it’s certainly not urgent," he said

                    • 3 votes
                    #10.1 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:55 PM EST
                    Buzz of the Orient

                    from another article currently on the vine

                    Here is the link to that article (it's not contrary to the CoH or UA to have posted it):

                    http://sbuzzc76.newsvine.com/_news/2012/01/19/10194206-israel-says-iran-isnt-building-a-nuclear-weapon

                    • 5 votes
                    #10.2 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:21 PM EST
                    Indian Says

                    Come on man be more logical with your thesis inorder to give a sensible hope because US always tries to be @ the top always.Iran has been an EMPIRE and a successful one too for many hundreds of years and US Govt do not have the hearts to admit this.Why doesn't US want Iran to succeed in its Nuke Prog.

                    Killing Iranian scientists is such a shameful,old fashioned,degrading form of self defense.Can you think,or do you realize that those scientists have families-little children,daughters who have no one to look upon for comfort.The jews don't have a heart and are still sticking with old-fashionism while the rest of the world is moving ahead or trying to,these jews who have put themselves in the spotlight are still living in WWI & WWII days.Basically,in general, the West does not have any thing to do with Israel personally but they have made it an issue unless all the caucasians in the world are of jewish descent than the issue is justifiable but not at an humanitarian approach?!

                    Above all,"if Iran legally starts selling military grade weapons (which are also considered for mass destruction) just like US, UK, Sweden, France etc. does, than this would be an even greater blame illogically on Iran's head.BUT, its the West that does it so it is okay.Its the West that goes into other peaceful countries, who are making their economy roll through exports of its natural resources which belongs to them only and to no one else and creates a situation through 'lies and blasphemy' too and also sells them those military grade weapons that give them BIG chance to put their stinking boots on their soil and make that already poor nation even more poor.E.g Mexico, Gautemala, Venezuela-The whole of Americas are now under the influences of drugs & prostitution because this is how they defeat a country's economy and now we see "The Taking Of Middle Eastern Resources-OIL" which is pretty much the only resource they have to have an economy.This is "A Sign of an Evil that has taken over a ONCE Beautiful Nation & the worst is yet to come upon the innocent Americans and the rest of the innocent world".How can people be so naive? It's not 'naive' but 'greed' caused by a few semiconductors and shiny metallic automobiles that puts people in debts and pollutes the air they breath in too.What a BUMMER!

                    There has been an on going elongated Jewish involvement in Iranian Affairs, together toeing with the West, Israel has done quite a few wanders themselves.They speak Irani,Arabic and Lebanese,Egyptian,even Indian and wherever in the Middle East their is a Jewish settlement,there is likely an Israeli- CIA-MOSSAD involvement.The only reason these MOSSAD was able to succeed in the defeating of the Muslim Nations is because "they all look the same" and "even their religion has the same origins".

                    The Western governments are just making a huge deal out of something that doesn't mean anything to the West,especially their happiness and their future,but only because there's a concern that Iran is preparing against an invasion by the West and the Israelis just like in Iraq,Libya,and already they have tried Iran so are skeptic about the invasion because it really makes the West look very evil because NATO has never attacked a country with a strong military capability and also that Iran has quite an arsenal that could pack a powerful punch if treaded upon.

                    Now,if Iran did not have these arsenals then the West & the jews would have already bombed Iran and taken over Iran's Oil & gold-The heart Of A Beautiful Persian Empire.

                    World says that"Iran is very strict with their women" and 'The Irani Women' too are very respectful in their country.I wonder,if the situation comes down to which woman you would like to trust & marry -Is it a woman bought up with regulations or a one without regulations??? I know what I would choose...

                    Again, Donald McKinley Allen says that Israel's 'defensive plan' is entirely understandable and supportable because it is also virtually necessary for a worthwhile good; the protection of innocents.Now,if you look at the amount of atrocities the two nations has done upon humans than is Allen's claims justified?.A BIG NO NO!! If I start digging into the history of jews all the way from their Russian heritage in the 1800's etc. than Jews has killed a lot of caucasians Europeans starting from Russia under a powerful conspirator. If Israel calls their invasion plans 'defensive' then what would you call the unhousing of the Millions of Palestinians in Gaza living there for thousands of years after their descendants and now what sort of future will these 'BEAUTIFUL PALESTINIAN WOMEN & CHILDREN' have???The answer to this the whole world knows.Because of the same old-fashioned decision makers who are living amongst modern people have made their lives miserable while making lives of their own kind pleasant over the blood of the Muslim people and all those in support of something like this are all evil and support 'terrorism' in this modern world where every one could have been equally happy.One more thing, the bible says that "when Israel rules the world the world will end" and this is a fact from the bible and the believers are missing this fact that "for whom will the world end for"?

                    I you like,you can debate me on this one but I would like the reader to research on 'The poisoned Russian spy,Alexander Litvienko who found out about a conspiracy of Bush and Putin,and maybe there will be made a bit more sense of these issues and clue on something interesting.

                    • 3 votes
                    #10.3 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:11 PM EST
                    digcreation

                    a whole loot of racists nonsense.

                      #10.4 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:53 PM EST
                      Reply
                      ma91744-1401618

                      Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientists - An Act of War or Terrorism?

                      An act of terrorism.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#11 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:33 PM EST
                      Herman C

                      Meanwhile, our billionaire Shah of Afghanistan, King and Emperor Hamid Karzai, has awarded the Afghan Oil Franchise to the CHINESE, along with their Aynak copper reserves, which means our sons and daughters in arms are now **trapped protecting the property of CHINESE LEASE HOLDERS** against 10,000s of Afghan peasants being driven off those agrarian landholdings.

                      How did we reach this impasse, and why is there NOT ONE WORD in our US media, that we are still squandering $115 BILLION a year on these foreign crusades, protecting FOREIGN OWNERS, our foreign policy redirected by ZioniPNAC, ...when we could have FREE NATIONAL HEALTHCARE? IRAN IS ALL ABOUT OIL SUPPLY DESTRUCTION IN THE FACE OF OVERSUPPLY / FALLING DEMAND.

                      Iraq #2 competitor, offline until 2013; Libya #3 competitor, offline until 2014; Iran #4 competitor. What's gone wrong is Zioni-Saudi PNAC in WADC/NYC, controlling our foreign policy with a Military-For-Hire larger than all other countries combined. America doesn't belong to ***automatic dual-citizen*** Isrealis and Saudis! Scerw Isreal, they would scerw you, ...and have ... and will. Scerw Saudis, they were behind 9-1-1! Saudis bleed US for $1B EVERY DAY in excess oil profits!

                      Iran is a ZERO threat to CONUS and America's real interests, ...now and in any conceivable future.

                      DISCLAIMER: I hold long positions in several lucrative Oil Royalty Trusts ... so On to Tehran™!!

                        Reply#12 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:01 PM EST
                        Ron W-5

                        How is it that the US always has to be the tough guy? How is it that Russia and China, Switzerland, Japan, etc. seem to be able to get along with just about everyone, but the US is always either at war or on the brink of war? Could it be because the defense industry is one of the biggest industries in the US, and supports a lot of local and national politicians, not to mention neo-con pundits? I don't know. Just wondering. How much longer can the American middle class go on paying for all this? Do the powers that be care? Or do they, like Romney, have their Cayman Island and Swiss bank accounts ready to bail out if we fail? I don't know. Just wondering. All I know is it looks like we are more negatively perceived in the world than Iran will ever be. And that is just sad.

                          Reply#13 - Fri Feb 3, 2012 12:38 AM EST
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